Fluency in spoken and understand reading?

[muslimun]

Assalaamu'alaikum,

In the 2 year SP course, will I be able to fluently speak fusha arabic and understand medium level arabic text by the end of the 1st year?

Also, what is exactly fusha, is it Quranic Arabic that people use to not only understand the quran language, but also to speak it?

May allah reward you all, ameen

muslimun

[bluepilot]

Wa alaykum assalam wa rahmatullah,

I'm not a 2nd year student so I don't know the precise answer to your question above. But as a 1st Semester student, this is what I can say:

Fushaa is what is also called MSA - Modern Standard Arabic. Yes, this IS the Qur'anic Arabic, and it is also the Arabic used on the News, in Newspapers and ...in Arabic cartoons!! Ofcourse the Qur'an is the word of Allah and its eloquence and perfection is incomparable, but the language rules (Grammar, Morphology, Rhetoric etc.) for the Fushaa are the same anywhere.

A 2nd year student would be able to READ a vowelless page of Arabic text easily, and since spoken is WITH vowels it should be easier for a proficient student to understand. Proficient would mean one who has been studying hard, being regular with classes etc. And also, proficient because when you're READING you can take your time to figure out a hard sentence, but in spoken it should be done on the go.

I would say the tools are all there, if one works hard then a 2nd year student CAN understand spoken fushaa.

As for spoken Arabic, because of the nature of the course (being online) and since many years of a regular madrasa learning are packed into these 2 years, it is not possible for the spoken component to be built into it. But this course would provide anyone the IDEAL foundation, which will help them benefit from any further Arabic course (overseas - for speaking etc.) MANY MULTIPLE times.

A note: In the beginning of the course, there is no focus on vocabulary except the words we come across in the reading we're doing. We focus on the structure (grammar & morphology). I suppose the vocab/dictionary usage is introduced later.

Hope that helps!

[naveedrasul]

Originally Posted by muslimun

Assalaamu'alaikum,

In the 2 year SP course, will I be able to fluently speak fusha arabic and understand medium level arabic text by the end of the 1st year?

Also, what is exactly fusha, is it Quranic Arabic that people use to not only understand the quran language, but also to speak it?

May allah reward you all, ameen

muslimun

Wa alaykum assalaam wr wb,

The focus of this course is to teach you fus-ha (classical arabic). The language of the Quran. It is meant to take you to a level whereby you are capable of parsing sentences and paragraphs whilst being able to understand them thoroughly and accurately. Just because one can speak arabic does not mean they have the capacity to read and accurately understand classical arabic texts. For that, you need to have studied the sciences of the arabic language to a certain level (nahw - grammar, sarf- morphology/etymology, balagha - style, rhetoric, adab - literature etc.).That is the focus of this course.

By the end of it, you should not have any real difficulty in being able to understand classical arabic.

MSA (Modern Standard Arabic) which is the type of arabic used as a medium between arab countries, and the language used in arab media, magazines, books etc. Is based upon classical arabic. The grammar is more or less the same with little difference. However, there is a big difference in the style of the language as well as much of the vocabulary used. The style of MSA is far more simplified and has come a little closer to western languages. There are many new words now introduced in MSA, as well as many of the common words in classical arabic having become more rare in MSA, and some of the rare words in classical arabic having become more frequently used in MSA.

So there is some difference. I have noticed that people who study MSA have much difficulty with classical arabic. Whereas one who has studied classical arabic, but has not learned to speak it only needs to spend a little time amongst arabs to pick up MSA. I had a friend who after studying classical arabic (mostly he only did the qasas books as also used in this course) and some grammar, then after spending about a little over a month with arabs, could speak arabic (MSA) fluently.

The goal is upon studying and understanding Classical Arabic, a language not really spoken any more. This is why there is no time spent learning to speak the language. Classical Arabic in only found in books now. The goal is to understand the Quran, Sunnah and Classical books of Deen, thus the course is tailored towards that. Learning MSA will only detract you from your goal. However, upon completion of the course there is no reason why you can not learn to speak MSA (which is useful) and shouldn't be difficult to do at that point.

That is my understanding anyway.

wallahu a'alam.

[muslimun]

AS, WR, WB

May Allah (STW) reward you all Bluepilot and Naveed Rasul. Ameen

In order to get into al Azhar, I will need to have a good grasp in Nahu, a good understanding of roots and derivatives (Sarf), and be proficient in balaagha. Could I attain all of this in 1 year in the SP course, and then head off to Cairo, egypt?

Also, would It be possible, if I could take the 2nd years in a 3-4 month period, either by playing the archives of the course or by other alternatives?


muslimun

[Yusuf Mullan]

You would need 3-4 additional months besides the 1st year. Our 3-4 month tafseer component which begins right at the end of year 1, should give you enough balagha exposure in order to begin studying on your own for the entrance exam.

Also, would It be possible, if I could take the 2nd years in a 3-4 month period, either by playing the archives of the course or by other alternatives?

If you can miss the Fiqh portion, then the above would be possible.

[godilali]

Originally Posted by naveedrasul

Wa alaykum assalaam wr wb,


So there is some difference. I have noticed that people who study MSA have much difficulty with classical arabic. Whereas one who has studied classical arabic, but has not learned to speak it only needs to spend a little time amongst arabs to pick up MSA. I had a friend who after studying classical arabic (mostly he only did the qasas books as also used in this course) and some grammar, then after spending about a little over a month with arabs, could speak arabic (MSA) fluently.

To be able to speak fluently after one month honestly seems very far-fetched. A number of students I know studied classical Arabic prior to coming to Egypt and have amassed a vocabulary of a few thousand words, but they are still not fluent in speaking after spending a couple of years here. My definition of fluency is being able to speak on any topic (religion, politics, economics, weather, food, etc.) with fluidity, utilizing a wide variety of vocabulary and expressions. If one considers being able to engage in "small-talk" (how are you, I study this, I live here, please, thank you, etc.), then this can be achieved in a matter of weeks, regardless of whether or not one has previous experience.

Originally Posted by naveedrasul

The goal is upon studying and understanding Classical Arabic, a language not really spoken any more. This is why there is no time spent learning to speak the language. Classical Arabic in only found in books now. The goal is to understand the Quran, Sunnah and Classical books of Deen, thus the course is tailored towards that. Learning MSA will only detract you from your goal. However, upon completion of the course there is no reason why you can not learn to speak MSA (which is useful) and shouldn't be difficult to do at that point.

That is my understanding anyway.

wallahu a'alam.

I believe this is not entirely accurate. From personal experience, my teacher uses classical arabic to teach. He often quotes classical poetry and utilizes old expressions that are not used by the general populace. Additionally, khutbas and durus in masajid are conducted in the classical language. In fact, I have found that when learning Classical Arabic and MSA simultaneously (there honestly isn't much of a difference; if anything MSA is simply a subset of classical Arabic with some additional vocab and some new expressions), both reinforce each other rather than detract from one another.

That being said, I strongly recommend the brother who started the thread to complete as much of this program as possible prior to studying overseas, for the reasons I explained in the testimonials section.

[naveedrasul]

Originally Posted by godilali

To be able to speak fluently after one month honestly seems very far-fetched. A number of students I know studied classical Arabic prior to coming to Egypt and have amassed a vocabulary of a few thousand words, but they are still not fluent in speaking after spending a couple of years here. My definition of fluency is being able to speak on any topic (religion, politics, economics, weather, food, etc.) with fluidity, utilizing a wide variety of vocabulary and expressions. If one considers being able to engage in "small-talk" (how are you, I study this, I live here, please, thank you, etc.), then this can be achieved in a matter of weeks, regardless of whether or not one has previous experience.

I think this comes down to the method one uses to learn the language. The brother I spoke about, I know really well and witnessed first hand the fluency of his spoken arabic. Since he already knew a good deal of vocab (from qasas books) and had a good grasp of nahw all he did is talk to arabs constantly for a month of two. Even Shaikh Ahmed Ali praised him for the amount of arabic he picked up in such a short period of time.

I have seen brothers who go to egypt and other places and spend plenty of time studying arabic, attending every lesson, revising everything thoroughly and still not achieve a good level of fluency. On the other hand, you have brothers who do not focus so much on their lessons but spend most of their time speaking arabic with arabs. During a short period of time they end up picking up far more than the students who attended all their lessons and studied hard.

I know a shaikh (who is a friend of mine) who studied in egypt. He studied in al-azhar graduating from there and did his takhsees in Hadith. He himself told me, when he went to egypt he could barely speak a few words of arabic. He had no real exposure to arabic before. Yet when he was there, all he did was talk to arabs and within two months was able to understand and speak arabic well. Within about four months his brother told me, he reached a good level of fluency.

It's all about the approach. Immersion is considered to be the best form of learning a language. I know a maulana who could not speak arabic, just having spent some time on jama'ah with arab brothers he can now speak arabic fluently. I can go on with examples, brothers I personally know. So I disagree, it certainly is not far fetched.

But unfortunately, one can no longer learn classical arabic through immersion as it is no longer spoken in that form.

I believe this is not entirely accurate. From personal experience, my teacher uses classical arabic to teach. He often quotes classical poetry and utilizes old expressions that are not used by the general populace. Additionally, khutbas and durus in masajid are conducted in the classical language. In fact, I have found that when learning Classical Arabic and MSA simultaneously (there honestly isn't much of a difference; if anything MSA is simply a subset of classical Arabic with some additional vocab and some new expressions), both reinforce each other rather than detract from one another.

That being said, I strongly recommend the brother who started the thread to complete as much of this program as possible prior to studying overseas, for the reasons I explained in the testimonials section.

Perhaps it is not entirely accurate. But there is much difference between msa and classical arabic. I was once speaking to an arabic teacher who teaches arabic in egypt (university qualified and specializes in the arabic language) and read out some text to him from nurul idhaah. He asked me not to read to him from that book, and explained that classical arabic is very difficult to understand for modern day arabs. He himself struggled with it, and then asked me whether these are the types of texts taught in the darse-nizami. When I affirmed it was, he was shocked and since held a new level of respect for those who go through such a system of study.

Many of the basic words are the same in both languages, but there is also much difference. When I was speaking to an algerian shaikh and we discussed the differences between msa and classical, he too confirmed there are vast differences.

I think many people do complain that msa has no where near the beauty and richness that classical arabic has, and is far more simplified. And those ulama of medival arabic were complaining that their arabic was very distant from the arabic of the Sahaba r.a.! Subhanallah.

The lectures you speak about in arabic, i've heard a number of them, again, they are in a far more simplified version of the language. I remember once when we met an arab brother who traveled and studied arabic in numerous countries. Many arab brothers praised him in his arabic, saying it was of a very high level. They were sat in the company of Shaikh Sanussi, who studied in mauritania amongst other places. When this brother began speaking in a high level of arabic, the Shaikh responded speaking purely classical arabic. The brother was dumbstruck, he seriously struggled to understand it and realized how low his arabic truly was in comparison. He ended up studying with Shaykh Sanussi. Again I could go on and on...

The arabic language, and the differences are no where near as simple as you are making it out to be.

wallahu a'alam.

[godilali]

as salamu alaikum,

We are obviously not going to agree on every little thing, but I just wanted to address one thing:
"The arabic language, and the differences are no where near as simple as you are making it out to be."
I'm not sure if you read my post in its entirety, but I clearly stated that MSA is a subset of classical Arabic. What I mean by that is that is that MSA generally abides by the rules of classical Arabic; however, there are many additional rules, expressions, etc. in classical Arabic. All though I am by no stretch of the imagination an expert, I've studied a bit of the issues of differences in nahw along with their shawahid from poetry of different tribes (eg: lughat "akaluni al-baragith," maa banu tamimiyyah vs. maa hijaziyyah, etc.) and am currently studying balagah and adab (including jahiliyyah poetry; doesn't get much more classical...), so I am aware that classical arabic is far more sophisticated than MSA. That being said, I completely disagree with your statement "Learning MSA will only detract you from your goal." As I stated before, learning both reinforces the other, since much of the vocabulary and expressions are the same.

Additionally, students do not learn just MSA. You should be aware that the books studied by the students to learn Arabic are either classical texts (I studied ajurrumiyyah and qatrun nada, and am currently studying alfiyyah and adab/poetry from different eras, including jahiliyyah, ummayad, abbasid, etc.) or contain excerpts from classical texts (eg: the third book of the Bayna Yadayk series contains excerpts from the Sirah of ibn Hisham and books of ibnul Jawzi). Additionally, in masajid near my home, they teach Madarij al-Salikin, Zad al-Ma'ad, al-I'tisam, and various other classical texts. The point that I am trying to make is that learning MSA and learning CA are not mutually exclusive.

I would agree that speaking, reading, and writing are separate skills, and the most emphasis should be placed on being able to read classical texts, followed by writing, followed by speaking.

[godilali]

By the way, can you give me more information about Shaykh Sanussi and link to some of his lectures? I would love to benefit by listening to some of them.

I would recommend listening to Shaykh Ali al-Qarni as well:
http://www.islamway.com/?iw_s=Lesson...esson_id=37099

[godilali]

So there is some difference. I have noticed that people who study MSA have much difficulty with classical arabic. Whereas one who has studied classical arabic, but has not learned to speak it only needs to spend a little time amongst arabs to pick up MSA. I had a friend who after studying classical arabic (mostly he only did the qasas books as also used in this course) and some grammar, then after spending about a little over a month with arabs, could speak arabic (MSA) fluently."

Interesting; my roommate brought the Qasas books and al-qira'ah al-rashidah from the UK and when through a number of the books in a matter of a couple weeks with his teacher, but stopped, because they found them to be ridiculously easy. I myself read one of those books in two days. I'm not sure how children's books like Qasas an-Nabiyyin constitute classical Arabic and what we study in Egypt constitutes watered-down MSA.